tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9926230.post6010332239006775949..comments2024-03-05T08:06:41.189-05:00Comments on On The Contrary: Notes on the Jewish Week Article about Rav BinaADDeRabbihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11749876612695930184noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9926230.post-24146592304509256002012-01-29T21:17:52.292-05:002012-01-29T21:17:52.292-05:00I have just (Sunday evening) read all of the seven...I have just (Sunday evening) read all of the seven pages of comments on the 'Jewish Week' story. How depressing ... there is ample testimony from numerous individuals (and their spouses) which should make any conscientious person thoroughly alarmed. Yet others, with blind obstinacy, excuse his behaviour, with many blaming the victims. Classic behaviour, with - as one comment suggests - strong indications of sociopathic overtones, both in the reported behaviour but also in the reactions of his defenders. We do not seem to kive in a very healthy community.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9926230.post-52302476675876839792012-01-26T20:46:53.555-05:002012-01-26T20:46:53.555-05:00What is emotional abuse? It is sad that Rav Bina ...What is emotional abuse? It is sad that Rav Bina is targeted here when there are known instances of Rabbis in insular frum communities who are clearly abusive, no if ands or buts about it. They get away with it. And here you have a Rav Bina who is loved and hated. I think we should be focusing first on the ones who are hated and hated. And they are out there.modern chassidishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05317671441837837667noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9926230.post-91418992462660269402012-01-26T06:02:37.614-05:002012-01-26T06:02:37.614-05:00by the way, apparently you have left and yet you s...<i>by the way, apparently you have left and yet you still expose yourself to our incessent stream of ... (that's what we call irony).</i><br /><br />A) I was never frum, although I am conversant with the belief system and the lifestyle.<br /><br />B) You seem to be implying that I can't stay away (the "pintele yid" is calling to me, or some such thing). In fact, I only expose myself to it occasionally. Yesterday, I was directed here by one of Elli's posts on another blog - Failed Messiah, I think.<br /><br />C) Your reply actually validated my statement. You're proving my point, not yours.Jeff Eygeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11967707883565162538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9926230.post-8775322172892311882012-01-26T03:27:12.278-05:002012-01-26T03:27:12.278-05:00Oh, please.
If I were frum, I'd leave just so...Oh, please.<br /><br />If I were frum, I'd leave just so I wouldn't have to spend my life listening to the incessant stream of rationalizations like this one.<br /><br />cipher, as someone who is not frum, i will assume that you are complacent with that choice of lifestyle. many of those observant, however, consider it a shame that people leave religion. so, there's no rationalization. it's sad that you and others no longer want to be observant. why you made that decision is up to each an every one of you. but if you made it due to being picked upon by one rabbi, then you've got a long way to come before you can look at the mirror and be intellectually honest with yourself. <br /><br />by the way, apparently you have left and yet you still expose yourself to our incessent stream of ... (that's what we call irony).hubscubshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10197388364331929686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9926230.post-1083137117917622432012-01-25T23:34:33.885-05:002012-01-25T23:34:33.885-05:00He is the gilgul of the Kotker Rebbe.
to quote the...He is the gilgul of the Kotker Rebbe.<br />to quote the kotzker "the middle of the road is for horses".machine gun fodderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08471350647862370563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9926230.post-7266285055193891182012-01-25T18:53:59.680-05:002012-01-25T18:53:59.680-05:00Chanie and Aytan
"I think that there is a di...Chanie and Aytan<br /><br />"I think that there is a difference between a 'pied piper' type, and abuse."<br /><br />If you read Shaviv's list, the pied piper does abuse. For example, is this not abuse? "As soon as they are disillusioned or dropped, they are written out of the teacher’s story. Often such students, very hurt . . ."<br /><br />If you have in mind other charismatic individuals who don't do these things, then they are not the pied piper type as described by Paul Shaviv.Mississippi Fred MacDowellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02734864605700159687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9926230.post-39149655613912110692012-01-25T18:11:06.893-05:002012-01-25T18:11:06.893-05:00i don't think it's telling at all. the ...<i>i don't think it's telling at all. the 'kid' you had at your table was just that, ... a kid. he had nothing else to blame it on, so he found himself a good excuse, a שעיר המשתלח. being treated in a way that is uncomfortable might be the source of their loathing, but leaving religion was their choice and they just look for their nearest pretext to pass the buck.</i><br /><br />Oh, please.<br /><br />If I were frum, I'd leave just so I wouldn't have to spend my life listening to the incessant stream of rationalizations like this one.Jeff Eygeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11967707883565162538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9926230.post-29664355001254663072012-01-25T16:32:29.584-05:002012-01-25T16:32:29.584-05:00A few points --
1. "The NYJW article misses ...A few points -- <br />1. "The NYJW article misses something when it makes the issue about Rav Bina specifically, since the problem is present in virtually every school, even if he might be an extreme example of it."<br /><br />I think that there is a difference between a 'pied piper' type, and abuse. I may not like the cult of personality that surrounds certain other educators/rabbis etc. but there is a difference (maybe just a fine line?) between that and verbal and emotional abuse. abuse of power is different than having power.<br /><br />2. What concerns me here is also the 'bystander' phenomenon, of kids who witness this and dont speak up. A 'bystander' who I know fairly well, who is now an educator, questions what this says about the values we teach our kids at home and in school. does it all end with kavod harav? <br />also - we all know the stories are true. so why are there so many denying it? did they not see it? do they overlook it? has kavod harav lead them to brush it off?<br /><br />3. the obvious question is - do the ends, (where some are 'straightened out')justify the means?Chanie and Aytanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06898112890645817820noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9926230.post-88860265535520564322012-01-25T16:31:17.119-05:002012-01-25T16:31:17.119-05:00"I don't think Paul Shaviv is a prophet&q..."I don't think Paul Shaviv is a prophet"<br /><br />Phew.<br /><br />:)Benjamin of Tudelahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00443453533108185137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9926230.post-89694216661996020582012-01-25T16:09:53.207-05:002012-01-25T16:09:53.207-05:00Shlomo - Rav Bina was not necessarily the nearest ...Shlomo - Rav Bina was not necessarily the nearest pretext, and there were all sorts of other things to blame it on. One student I remember had several siblings who went OTD. There are always other rabbis and, of course, parents. But for some reason, Rav Bina becomes a lightning rod for all these kids issues with frumkeit. Which is why I stand by what I wrote - it is telling that he becomes the object of loathing, even if I don't believe for a minute that he's really the reason that the kids went OTD.ADDeRabbihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11140799140529618997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9926230.post-20153325147353338632012-01-25T15:42:57.419-05:002012-01-25T15:42:57.419-05:00i also usually like what you have to say, but this...i also usually like what you have to say, but this part was off-mark: <br /><br />-I suspect many of these kids would drop observance anyway, but it's telling that Rav Bina becomes the object of their loathing-<br /><br />i don't think it's telling at all. the 'kid' you had at your table was just that, ... a kid. he had nothing else to blame it on, so he found himself a good excuse, a שעיר המשתלח. being treated in a way that is uncomfortable might be the source of their loathing, but leaving religion was their choice and they just look for their nearest pretext to pass the buck.hubscubshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10197388364331929686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9926230.post-66277187889093648592012-01-25T13:45:59.078-05:002012-01-25T13:45:59.078-05:00"The problem with Shaviv is that he defines v..."The problem with Shaviv is that he defines variations in normative human behavior as beyond the pale."<br /><br />He defines a specific type of "Pied Piper." You say that in Judaism we revere rabbinic figures. This may be true, but not all rabbinic figures were or are Pied Pipers, not by a long shot. But if the shoe fits . . .Mississippi Fred MacDowellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02734864605700159687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9926230.post-50002813110933244732012-01-25T11:53:08.178-05:002012-01-25T11:53:08.178-05:00Thank you for referring to my piece, which has bee...Thank you for referring to my piece, which has been reproduced and referenced many times by many Jewish and non-Jewish blogs and other sources. Sadly, it seems to speak to many people's experiences. <br /><br />1. I also comment that:<br /><br /> "Other parents, however, will rave about how their son/daughter “adores” Mr./Ms/ or Rabbi X, and is learning “so much from them”." <br /><br />-- see the 'Jewish Week' report (and the comments there and on 'Failed Messiah' for examples of this. In the Jewish community context, Rabbis (and others) will often deliberately overlook totally unacceptable behaviour "because he/she is influencing so many youngsters".<br /><br />2. re BenRSchwartz (8:11) -- none of this refers to "normative" behaviour....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9926230.post-27251417362180643922012-01-25T10:44:00.074-05:002012-01-25T10:44:00.074-05:00Ben, I offered a working definition of charisma. I...Ben, I offered a working definition of charisma. I do think it applies to many, but not most, and certainly not to the greatest. <br />There are rabbis who I have profound admiration and even veneration for. R. Moshe Feinstein, R. Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, Rav Amital, Rav Lichtenstein - to name a few. You never get the impression, with any of them, that it's about followings and personality. <br />I recommend that you read the recent biography of Rav Yehuda Amital. I hope it clarifies things for you.ADDeRabbihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11140799140529618997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9926230.post-7371161363882273572012-01-25T10:34:08.510-05:002012-01-25T10:34:08.510-05:00Are there any surveys/studies as to why people aba...Are there any surveys/studies as to why people abandon Orthodoxy? More often than not, when I talk to someone who has left Orthodoxy, there is a rabbinic authority figure involved in the story. If someone isn't doing this research, some of these BY girls need to stop being occupational therapists and speech pathologists and apply themselves a bit more.Greg G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/05442389755374154879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9926230.post-83466545795302501262012-01-25T08:11:59.363-05:002012-01-25T08:11:59.363-05:00Though we usually agree, I find your charisma/cult...Though we usually agree, I find your charisma/cult implication disturbing. The same can/could/is said for all Chassidic, Litvish, Dati Leumi, Modern Orthodox groups if spun properly. <br /><br />In Judaism we revere rabbinic figures. Sometimes for Torah; sometimes for pedagogy; sometimes for middos. The more effective, the more "cult"-like. Moreover, Judaism itself (like all relgion) is a cult according to most definitions. The problem with Shaviv is that he defines variations in normative human behavior as beyond the pale.BenRSchwartzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02876992895938288184noreply@blogger.com